lindah ([info]percysowner) wrote,
@ 2008-05-18 12:25:00
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Entry tags:supernatural

Thinky thoughts Supernatural
My thought on the effects of the writers strike on the episode

I've been giving a lot of thought as to how Dean will be saved from Hell (I am assuming he will be saved eventually otherwise, I think the fans will desert in hoards). What strikes me is the effects of the strike on the show. Kripke said that the strike forced them to drop all the storylines except for Dean's deal so I think we have to look at what they decided to present as thier last three episodes to get an idea of how Sam can get Dean out. What did each of the four final episodes present that could be used to resolve the situation?



No Rest for the Wicked is obvious. It culminates the deal and has Dean rejecting Sam using any powers to save him. It was a straightforward episode. It is implied that Sam can save Dean using his powers, but that does not happen.


Ghostfacers is probably an outlier. I was 90% completed before the strike and simply was an easy episode to get up and running. It may have nothing to do with the deal per se, but it did reinforce one part of the mythology that we have seen before, the fact that ghosts can take out other ghosts simply by their own actions. This was shown in the Pilot, in Home, in Red Sky at Morning, and here. I'm not sure that this will play into the deal, but it is an established part of the mythology arc and I think that it will be important somewhere down the road.


Long Distance Call is next up and I had a hard time finding much that could be used in regards to rescuing Dean. The MOTW actually did provide and escape clause of sorts, if the MOTW ate Dean's soul I don't think it would have been available to go to Hell. It just would have been dead, but the writers didn't really state this and it probably didn't relate to the deal as such. This episode mainly showed Dean's desparation and belief in John and Sam's total lack of belief in John. So was this just a character episode that didn't give them much on the deal? Then I remember the cute part. The tour of Edison's museum and the spirit phone. Thee was the tour guide talking about the spirit phone that could reach "the dead". So maybe this wasn't quite the throw away it looked like, maybe it was the whole point of the episode. Maybe it is a way for Sam to contact Dean while he is in Hell and will help in locating and rescuing Dean.


Then comes Time is on Our Side. This wraps up a lot of this season. We get the story on Bela (and it play into the mythology in some intersting ways, that I inted to save for another post). It fingers Lilith as the demon holding the contract. Both play somewhat into Dean's deal. But what about Doc Benton? Why this MOTW. Yes, it partly shows that Sam is willing to consider increasingly greay options and that Dean is rejecting them. But it also establishes that there are scientific options to be explored, something I don't think either boy had thought about during this year. Sam made it quite clear that Benton's immortality was not black magic, required no human sacrifice and the original process was not outside the moral of Sam and Dean. To keep it going forever required selling their souls, but the original formula did not. Then there is how science works. Theories, formulas, etc. do not spring up fully formed. There is experimentation and tweaking to get what you want. Doc Benton was seeking absolute immortality, but along the way he would have had to have found methods that repaired bodies, but did not allow immortality, so they were rejected by the doctor as failures. For example one formula healed the body, but if it was dead there was no way to animate it, so by Benton's scale it was a failure. Another formula brings the body back and allows sentience to return, but the revived body is still killable and/or can die by natural means, failure by Benton's criteria. The thing is all these intermediate steps would serve Sam in getting Dean back. He doesn't have to use Benton's final formula, just whatever will repair and preserve Dean's body long enough to get Dean's soul out of Hell and find a way to insert it back in a normal mortal body. The act that the journal still exists is supportive of this I think.


For the record, every year I come up with theories as to how things will be resolved and I am NEVER right. But I do think that considering the fact that the writers only had four episodes to leave all the clues to how to resolve this, that the choice of MOTW and B stories have to somehow play into the final resolution of saving Dean.






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[info]llywela13
2008-05-18 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Interesting thoughts.

Everyone seems so concerned about the preservation of Dean's body - and I was, before the finale aired. But then I remembered Dean's first encounter with the red-eyed demon, in Crossroad Blues, when she offered to bring John back 'just as he was' months after his body had been burned. If a demon is capable of resurrecting the dead, given the proper deals being made or whatever, they are also capable of reforming the body for that spirit to return to, regardless of what condition it is in. So I'm not so concerned with what happens to Dean's body - more interested in just how Sam will manage to extricate his soul from hell without turning his back on Dean's request that he break that oh-so destructive cycle and not make any more demonic deals.

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[info]bowtrunckle
2008-05-18 07:48 pm UTC (link)
OMG. Good point! Also, remember that Sam's spinal cord and stab wound were healed with no apparent nasty long-term side effects.

This just further reinforces my belief that the technicalities of deal making and the strictures of deals themselves are huge details that should be examined more carefully for S4 predictions. However, with 3x15's contradictory information regarding deal making (no crossroads, no kiss, and likely no summoning ritual required), I'm not sure if I can firmly believe other former deal-related "rules" also still stand. My confidence in Kirpke's ability to keep his own facts straight (i.e. not bending them for the sake of his own story) is slowly eroding.

Edited at 2008-05-18 07:51 pm UTC

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[info]llywela13
2008-05-18 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Also, Dean's brain was restored to full working order from its vegetative state. The right demon, appropriately powerful, can work wonders.

re: 3.15's deal making information - you mean Bela, right? No crossroads and no ritual that we saw, but we already knew from Crossroad Blues that once summoned a red-eyed demon could hang around and look for other vulnerable people to prey upon. It makes sense that they would - the more deals they can strike, the more souls they get to harvest, and the more power they build up (for their mistress, if not themselves). Also, we don't know that there was no kiss in Bela's case, just that we didn't see it - she was remembering the moment she gave into temptation, rather than the sealing of the deal.

I also think that the rules of deal-making would differ enormously from demon to demon. We've seen a few crossroads-type deals now. We also saw John strike a deal with Yellow-Eyes, which had a similar pattern but different rules. We also caught a glimpse of the way that the Tammi demon operated, which was completely different, but probably netted her a tidy number of human souls over the years.

*can rationalise almost anything*

*goes away to continue writing 316 meta*

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[info]sockkpuppett
2008-05-18 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Yeah but (enjoying this immensely!)-- What sticks with me re 3x15 is Bela's wail that "they changed the deal." I think that's a writer's "out."

Also, when John dealt with the YED, the YED told him that he couldn't do the deal but he knew someone who could, which, I assume, was a Crossroads Demon (based on the Dean's convo with the crossroads demon in 2x8). Or! in retrospect, maybe even Lilith herself.

I know I'm probably wayy to naive and hopeful here, but I am firmly ensconced in the "pay attention to everything" camp, especially since S3 was abbreviated.

Carry on. LOL

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[info]miss_cris
2008-05-18 11:52 pm UTC (link)
What sticks with me re 3x15 is Bela's wail that "they changed the deal." I think that's a writer's "out."

I think you're right to point out that Bela's situation is a little muddied in the details, but I think one way of looking at it is to say that actually Bela was trying to change the deal and Lilith wasn't letting her.

She made a standard ten year deal with a demon in exchange for her soul. She then proceeded to try to get out of that deal by making a new deal, which we were shown can happen in CB with Dean's deal not to exorcise the CRD negating Hudson's deal, but Bela never had anything that tempted Lilith to seriously consider releasing her.

This is just speculation, but perhaps the CRD was allowed to release Hudson because he was never the original target. Darrow, who did end up going to Hell, was the reason the CRD came to that bar. He was her original target. Maybe there are certain people that Lilith wants corrupted or taken out for specific reasons having to do with a plan like the YED and his psykids which seemed to be a multigenerational plan? Perhaps if the boys had tried to release Darrow, they'd have gotten the same answer that Sam later received over Dean's deal?

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[info]llywela13
2008-05-19 05:10 am UTC (link)
What sticks with me re 3x15 is Bela's wail that "they changed the deal." I think that's a writer's "out."
Maybe. But I took that to mean that Bela had used the Colt to try to haggle, to try to persuade the CRD to let her go, the Colt for her soul. But, like John in IMTOD, she soon learned that the Colt wasn't enough of a bargaining tool. The demons held all the cards, and simply demanded still more of her - more that she was willing to agree to, in the hopes of gaining her freedom. I can well imagine that it would entertain Lilith to toy with her in that way, as well as looking like a neat solution to her little Sam problem.

Also, when John dealt with the YED, the YED told him that he couldn't do the deal but he knew someone who could
But he was referring to the Reaper that he then possessed in order to restore Dean, rather than a crossroads demon. That implies that granting wishes in that way was not part of the YED's standard set of powers, but that he was perfectly capable of finding creative solutions in the right circumstances. And the opportunity of gaining possession of the Colt (not only a powerful anti-demon weapon removed from circulation but also the key to the devil's gate) but also gaining possession of John Winchester's soul - those would definitely be the right circumstances.

I do think the show has made it clear that individual demons operate very differently - which makes sense, in storyline terms, because it provides the writers with a fair amount of leeway.

Paying attention to everything is definitely the only way to go!

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[info]sockkpuppett
2008-05-19 05:25 am UTC (link)
I think we're standing next to each other in how we view both of these points. :) I think Lilith added more conditions to the deal, i.e., Bela had to kill Sam. Bela even said that to Dean. I suppose Bela, in an ideal sitch for *her*, could have killed the boys and Lilith still wouldn't have honored the deal because, yeah, Demon. heh. (ETA: And Lilith holds the contracts, but she doesn't do the bargaining, and doesn't that open up another can of demonic worms?)

And I'm not sure if the demon that possessed Tessa the Reaper was actually the YED, yellow eyes or not, because he said that *he* couldn't do it. The Reaper wasn't in the business of returning lives, and I opine that a Reaper isn't really a Demon anyway--can demons be possessed by demons? "Tessa" was just the way that Dean saw that Reaper.

But yeah! I agree! :-D

Edited at 2008-05-19 05:26 am UTC

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[info]llywela13
2008-05-19 06:37 am UTC (link)
And Lilith holds the contracts, but she doesn't do the bargaining, and doesn't that open up another can of demonic worms?
Ooh, yes. But it is fascinating to consider how many demons she appears to have under her, and how much control she has over them. Red-Eyes in AHBL said that she could get into a lot of trouble for making that deal with Dean - I'm going to guess because bringing Sam back restored Yellow-Eyes' favourite special child and chosen general, and if he had lived and carried out his plans, Lilith would have had to either rebel against him or fall in line, and clearly she much prefers the freedom she now has to build her own army. But the deal went ahead anyway, because Red-Eyes couldn't resist the possibility of ensnaring the soul of Dean Winchester.

I'm pretty sure it was Yellow-Eyes who took control of the Reaper (I know the Tessa face was just what she showed Dean). When he said that he couldn't do it, I think he meant he couldn't reverse Dean's death, but he knew how to make it happen. Which was by forcing a Reaper to do it for him. Reapers aren't demons, no. Different creature entirely - Reapers merely facilitate nature taking its course. But they can be controlled by outside forces, Sue Ann in Faith proved that. So I'm confident that that was what the YED meant, that he couldn't personally snap his fingers and restore Dean, but he could make it happen by controlling the Reaper.

Can demons be possessed by demons? Lilith seemed to do it to Ruby! Albeit by either forcing her out of her body or by trapping her inside it.

Anyway, it's all fascinating to mull over!

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[info]bowtrunckle
2008-05-19 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Ahh, you're brain is good for my brain. :) Excellent points! It's always good to be reminded that the absence of evidence is not evidence itself. :)

It slipped my mind that Azazel and Tammi!demon are also capable of deal-making in their own ways, which makes me wonder if it's in the realm of possibility that Sam, being part demon, one day could construct his own deals.

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[info]llywela13
2008-05-19 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Scary thought!

Does the ingestion of blood make him part-demon? Are his powers innate or were they given to him by Yellow-Eyes? Was the force feeding of that demon blood about something else - such as the demonic virus immunity we saw in Croatoan? Man, season four really needs to answer these questions!

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[info]vichan
2008-05-18 05:59 pm UTC (link)
The one belief I have had (since before the finale even aired) is that Sam will NOT get Dean out of Hell.

I'm not saying that Dean is going to stay down there, or that Sam isn't going to try to get his brother back.

I think 'Mystery Spot' was more important of an episode than ANYONE noticed. Everyone seemed to be concentrating on what happened to Sam in Dean's absence (him becoming very... Gordon-esque, so put it lightly), but I think the lesson that we should have pulled from that was what the Trickster said - that Sam COULDN'T save his brother. It was that episode that made me 100% sure that Dean was going to die at the end of S3. The lesson could have ended there, but I really think it goes beyond that. I don't think Sam is going to be able to get Dean out of Hell.

I think Dean is either going to get HIMSELF out of Hell... or that LILITH is going to let him out - and I'm actually more inclined to believe the second. (Yes, you read that right.) My main reason for believing this is because the deal wasn't for Dean to just go to Hell - it was for Dean's soul, period. Even if Sam drags Dean out of Hell, Lilith STILL owns Dean's contract.

I'm still pondering the reason for Lilith letting Dean out. She could let him out with a clause attached. Or maybe Sam WILL get him out - Lilith is obviously scared of Sam, so maybe he could threaten her. But... well, that very last shot in the recap part was the Demon-Dream!Dean, telling Dean that was what he would become... so...

My train of thought derails at that point, because that just completely blows my mind.

Err. Sorry my brain just spewed nonsense all over your comments. I don't meta well. :)

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[info]percysowner
2008-05-18 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I don't mind the brain spillage, I like to hear other people's opinions.

I have heard the argument that Dean will get himself out of Hell, or that someone else will rescue him, and I really hate that idea. For three seasons Dean has been been shown to have been everything to Sam throughout their lives. He acted as Mother, Father, Brother and finally Saviour. Sam has always been the protected one. This creates a total imbalance between the characters. Sam is always in the position of not being as strong as Dean, of not being able to give anything to Dean, of always being less. If Sam has no active part in saving Dean this imbalance remains, I am personally not comfortable with this. Sam needs to be an equal partner in the relationship, not the one that Dean is responsible for, who can not truly contribute to their lives. Just MHO.

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[info]vichan
2008-05-19 01:20 pm UTC (link)
I think my problem with Sam getting Dean out is HOW they will do it. If they can do it without Sam going uber-powerful or making another deal, I'd probably be okay with it.

Dean drew the parallel fairly clearly - Sam succumbing to his powers is going to be seen as equivalent to selling his soul because they're 'demonic' in origin. (Which I don't personally believe, but I don't think we're going to find out the true origins of Sam's powers until... yeah, probably the year after next, at the rate Kripke has let Sam's mytharc unfold. *shakes fists at Kripke*)

So Sam uses his powers, and the cycle of self-sacrifice goes on. It needs to stop somewhere, and it's kind of at the point that Sam is the only one who can stop it. If Sam makes it happen, too... I don't see how the Winchesters are ever going to learn that they need to freaking STOP.

However, I think Sam WILL have a chance to be Dean's savior, after all; I think getting Dean out of Hell is going to be a easier job than the aftermath of getting Dean out of Hell. What will Dean be like after (in theory) three months in Hell? We saw John, but he was already dead - and he moved on. Dean is coming back and staying back (yes, I really, truly believe!). It seems like we've had 'broken' Dean for two straight years now, but I don't think we've seen Dean TRULY broken... and I think we're about to. Having Sam bring Dean back from... whatever we see? It would mean a whole lot more than Sam's freaky brain power blowing the gates of Hell open. :)

Ugh. More mental spew. Sorry again!

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[info]pinkphoenix1985
2008-05-18 06:40 pm UTC (link)
very interesting!

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[info]dubiously
2008-05-18 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Maybe it is a way for Sam to contact Dean while he is in Hell and will help in locating and rescuing Dean.


that's an interesting idea, but I don't think it will work for two reasons:

1) the spirit phone would be used to contact spirits, ie, ghosts. Those would be souls still trapped on earth, not in heaven or hell. Once they pass on to another plane of existence, I don't think they would be considered spirits anymore, nor do they have contact with the living or supernatural beings who have escaped from hell or just not passed on yet. Look at Meg and the YED for example. After Dean exorcised Meg in Devil's Trap, the YED considered her to be dead.

2) as far as we've seen on the show, we have no indication that the spirit phone works. none of the phone calls originated from it.

He doesn't have to use Benton's final formula, just whatever will repair and preserve Dean's body long enough to get Dean's soul out of Hell and find a way to insert it back in a normal mortal body.


This I do like. I would love, love to see some significance in Sam taking the notes and all his research on them to carry over into S4. Your point that the Doc used science and not witchcraft seems important. I'd like to see more come from that.

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[info]percysowner
2008-05-18 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I have mixed feelings about the spirit phone, admittedly. I was trying to figure out why with only three episodes to lead up to the finale, the particular MOW's were picked. I couldn't find any reason for what happened in Long Distance call, except for the spirit phone. It was a reach, but it was all I could come up with. Of all my theories, that is the weakest.

As for Benton, I hope there really is a reason why they didn't destroy the book, just buried it and I hope it plays into the deal somehow.

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[info]dubiously
2008-05-18 07:06 pm UTC (link)
I understand your point. The only real reason I can think of is added angst, with "John" presenting just one more way that DOESN'T work for the boys to save Dean. It's more foreshadowing that no, Sam's not going to be able to save Dean. But I could be wrong.

Truthfully, I think that does lead into the finale, but I think what you're trying to say is that the last few episodes are going to set up something for S4 and how Dean is saved then. I'm not sure I agree that the writers were doing that, but it would be great if they were writing it that way. Continuity and breadcrumbs, especially from one season to the next, always make a story much better.

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[info]persuna
2008-05-18 10:52 pm UTC (link)

Interesting thoughts... I'm not convinced about the spirit phone actually being functional, because I always thought they were probably especially keen to have that plot used because it was such a great opportunity to have a JDM cameo without actually having him, if you know what I mean. I am far from convinced that the Doc Benton plotline is done with though. I think you're right there.

Also, to what you said in the comments somewhere, I too really really hope that Sam plays a role in saving Dean. One of my main thoughts when Season two ended was it would be a great leveler if Sam could save Dean's soul and do something huge to protect his brother as Dean does for him. And after a whole season of Sam trying to save Dean it'll probably be actually unbalancing if he isn't instrumental in getting Dean out of Hell.

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[info]jameserin
2008-05-19 12:51 am UTC (link)
i for one certainly hope that sam is going to have a role in getting dean out of hell, if that is in fact where he is. although, i'm inclined to believe that dean is in some sort of "limbo" just for the fact that kripke said himself that we wouldn't ever see hell because it's not in their budget and they wouldn't be able to do it justice if it was. i think that maybe(this is just speculation)when lilth tried to do her flashy hand thing(for lack of a better term)and it didn't work, that made dean's contract void. i think that sam might've disabled her powers for a minute and if she doesn't have powers, she can't hold contracts -- therefore, dean got stuck in some sort of limbo, or stuck inside his own head(because they did seem to go behind his eye, no?)which is also possible because that to me, is dean's own personal hell -- where he is completely and utterly alone without sam. dean's never been good at being alone, that's all over the series, starting with the pilot. so, yeah, of course he is "in hell" when he's alone. his body might be barely alive and sam just doesn't notice right now because he's grieving. if that is the case, then maybe sam can tap into some of those demonic powers and bring him back(fairly easily?)because he seems like he is more powerful than lilth(and is the boy king, after all). if he is not more powerful than she is, i can't imagine why lilth would be so scared of him.

but -- the hellhounds did tear him up something awful, so he might very well be dead and his soul might be in hell. if that is the case, i think sam will still tap into those powers and then when dean comes back, they will have to deal with the consequences of that(because there is no telling how long it will take to get dean out. i can't imagine they'll leave him down there that long). maybe by the time dean gets back, there will be less of a gray area for sam(more than there is already)and he'll be hardened more...and dean'll have to pull sammy back from the edge. add dean having to deal and adjust to being out of hell to the mix and man, what a season four!

either way, i think sam is going to have a role in saving dean, otherwise, they(ruby)wouldn't have harped on it so much. i think the trickster saying "you can't save your brother" was him trying to light a fire under sam's butt to get him to tap into whatever bomb he's got inside him but sam just wasn't ready/desperate enough. now though? after having to watch his brother die like that? i fully expect him to do whatever it takes, even if that means doing what they've fought so hard not to do. last act of a desperate man.

did that make any sense at all? i'm sorry if it didn't. i suck at this, lol.

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[info]percysowner
2008-05-19 04:44 am UTC (link)
It didn't suck at all, Thanks for the imput. I really think it is necessary for Sam to be partly if not wholly responsible for getting Dean out of Hell.

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[info]yourlibrarian
2008-05-20 02:27 am UTC (link)
Interesting ideas, of how different elements appearing this season might be brought together for a resolution. And the idea that Lilith will bring Dean back as a way to bargain with Sam seems pretty possible.

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